11 comments

• 

  David Gibbons

  10 months ago

  Hey Jeff,
  
  As you probably know, social media marketing (like quoting loans on Zillow) and advertising are complimentary online marketing strategies. Many of our advertisers actively quote loans and likewise, many of our active mortgage brokers use EZ Ads for local advertising. The LO's who are active in Zillow Mortgage Marketplace typically understand that it is thanks to the advertising on Zillow that access to the leads in Zillow Mortgage Marketplace is free.
  
  As for the borrowers' experience, I think it's pretty clear that there's a difference between an ad for an off-site service or product like ING's and the Zillow Mortgage Marketplace. First and foremost, the Zillow Mortgage Marketplace experience encourages consumers to shop around for a loan and so showcasing ads for alternative mortgage products alongside the quotes that borrowers are receiving in Zillow Mortgage Marketplace is certainly appropriate.
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  JeffX

  10 months ago

  No issues with advertising David, I just don't think that particular advertiser (or those of similar ilk) helps the Zillow Mortgage Market place and/or those participating in it.
  
  For one, its direct competition to those professionals in the community.
  
  Second, you (Zillow) have created a community where consumers can come and shop without fear of repercussion (spam marketing for giving up personal info)...ZMC has a set a precedent for how information is exchanged.
  Now I'm not saying ING is a bad lender necessarily, but they don't do business under the conditions ZMC mandates...this just seems misdirected to me.
  
  Credit and other ancillary product and service vendors are on the mark...competing lenders who don't follow the rules of your community, not so much.
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  David Gibbons

  10 months ago

  Jeff - advertisers compete with other advertisers constantly so I'm confused as to why you're surprised when it happens on Zillow. You seem to forget that LO's on Zillow are also advertising when they quote borrowers and that they are already competing with other LO's for borrowers' business on the site. All loans on Zillow are competed for and lenders choose how to compete; either by quoting loans or by purchasing advertising or both.
  
  When ING participates in Zillow Mortgage Marketplace, they have to follow the ZMM code of conduct. When they advertise on Zillow they have to follow our ad content guidelines. This ad meets our requirements for advertisers' ad content. Applying for a loan from ING and shopping around for competing quotes on Zillow are very different activities from a borrowers' perspective. The former is very clearly a loan application and requires that borrowers submit an SSN while the latter is very clearly merely a quote and does not personal details. In ING's case, the ad is the quote. There's really no conflicting messaging here and in the case of ZMM quotes that proceed to applications, borrowers should obviously expect to have to eventually share some personal credit details before their application can be finalized.
  
  Frankly Jeff, the message in that ad is quite precise and extremely clear yet you accuse it of being "generalized, ambiguous" Your criticism of ING is unfounded. What's your real beef here?
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• 

  JeffX

  10 months ago

  I have no real beef (ING just happened to be the ad I came across, though I do notice Quicken banner ads floating around as well), just confused as to what ZMM is trying to accomplish here for the consumer and/or the mortgage professional. Hence the title of my post...it appears Zillow wants its cake and to eat it too...
  
  "All loans on Zillow are competed for and lenders choose how to compete; either by quoting loans or by purchasing advertising or both."
  So, if you're a paying advertiser, there are one set of rules...if you're 'in' the ZMC and quoting there is another set..?
  
  "the message in that ad is quite precise and extremely clear yet you accuse it of being "generalized, ambiguous"
  
  Would you (or Joe consumer) qualify for The Orange Mortgage and the rate shown? How do you know?
  Advertising a rate without any indication to what the criteria are required to acquire such a rate is ambiguous.
  
  IMHO, Zillow shouldn't allow mortgage lenders to advertise their services within and around ZMM that (at least) don't follow it's prescribed processes around rate quoting...its confusing to a consumer and misaligned with mortgage pros who participate in ZMM.
  
  From an internal business, short term 'bottom line' perspective, allowing Lenders to advertise here makes great sense. From a long term philosophical, sustainable business perspective, it's disjointed...ZMM has far more potential than becoming Bankrate 2.0...
  
  David, you know I'm a fan of what you guys are trying to do...and you say that criticism is an opportunity to improve (in so many words)...know that my criticism is shared by many.
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• 

  David Gibbons

  10 months ago

  Jeff -
  
  "Don't sell mortgage advertising" is hardly constructive criticism. Your feedback is noted but you shouldn't expect this to change. Zillow's business model is ad supported and we will continue to both sell ads as well as create free marketing opportunities for our site's participants.
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• 

  JeffX

  10 months ago

  ""Don't sell mortgage advertising" is hardly constructive criticism."
  
  That statement is a gross over simplification of what my point is David...
  
  At no point have I suggested Zillow not sell ads...targeted ads selling complimentary products and services can be very useful for all parties...credit services, real estate professionals, home repair products and services, home furnishings, landscaping, even 3rd party services like title and escrow and insurance etc etc etc...
  
  Selling advertising to a very specific vendor type who doesn't align with your (consumer-centric) business philosophy, and potentially takes away from your current marketplaces contingency, will ultimately reduce credibility and participation.
  
  Don't take my word for it, ask any mortgage professional who swims in your lead pool (under your rules) what they think about ZMM allowing another mortgage company to slickly advertise their wares and roll with impunity at the gates of entry.
  
  Finding it hard to believe that you don't see the issue here David...its not about advertising, its about who you let advertise and where.
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• 

  JeffX

  10 months ago

  The ING ad is selling a 5 Yr ARM @ 5.5%/ 5.66% APR again today....guess rates and pricing don't change in ING world...
  
  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, that rate and APR aren't deliverable...unless a consumer paid a boat load of money to buy it down to that level.
  
  The cheapest 5 Yr ARM's, without buying down the rate, I see on the wholesale market are ~5.75% under the best of borrower and property conditions.
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• 

  Mike

  10 months ago

  Jeff,
  Great post. I think you hit it on the head and I am a little, hmm maybe not even a little surprised that the official blog post responder doesn't agree.
  
  It is absolutely fine to advertise and it would be completely ridiculous to think otherwise, but when a company make claims over and over that they are on the consumers side and then allow advertisements like the ING example, it does come off short sided and hypocritical.
  The fact that David wants to sit here and argue the point is even more ridiculous.
  Come on David, snap out of it and correct your own misconception. How narcissistic is that comment anyway? As if they are always right...
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• 

  jfsellsius

  10 months ago

  I see your point Jeff, which I think is, "Hey consumers, come to ZMM and enjoy an anonymous experience getting competitive loan quotes" doesn't jive with the competing "low ball" ING ad & give me your personal info. It may result in consumers bypassing ZMM (free riders) to bite on the ING ad (paid freight). That's the way the advertising ball bounces--- so I guess I agree with David. BUT... the consumer who bites the ING ad and is disappointed may very well leave Zillow for good , never having had the opportunity to sample ZMM. (Not to suggest that the ZMM experience would necessarily be any better in the end).
  
  IMO, lender ads which compete with ZMM dilute the brand's message from one of being pro-consumer (buyer) and transparent to traditional ad fed business (a mine field buyer beware environment). If Zillow held advertisers to the same standards as ZMM players the brand would have a consistency which would hold more value to consumers. Just my opinion.
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• 

  jbinfrisco

  10 months ago

  Interesting debate. Paid lender advertising placed next to content created from the efforts of a volunteer mortgage originator network isn't a prudent long-term strategy.
  
  While those originators do indeed have a dog in the hunt, there is also an understandable resentment nurtured in those that lack deep pockets.
  
  The instant a more 'valuable' model emerges those disenfranchised with Zillow will bolt.
  
  The question remains how valuable is the ZMM to a mortgage originator? I haven't seen much evidence that supports ZMM is producing consistent success for those that participate. Anyone else?
  
  BTW, what is the big deal with moving lender paid advertising into a different area of the site?
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  Sean_Rafferty_CMPS

  10 months ago

  As a ZMM participating "authorized" lender, I think having low balling retailers prominently displaying their cream of the crop rates next to my efforts sucks.
  
  Believe it or not, the rate's actually good (assuming < $500K). ING's rates don't move much since they portfolio everything, market can be yo-yo'ing in a 50-75 bp channel & they're like 'whatever".
  
  David's gotta do what he's gotta do to bring in ad rev... I just don't think Zillow has enough clout to stand up to it's advertisers and lay down rules for participation as they do for us minnows in the sea who only give up 25 bucks for the pain, er privilage, of churning out hundreds of quotes to serve borrowers who are primarily just leveraging ZMM to get their local broker or LO to reduce their rate.
  
  Oh, also, Zillow "profile" sidebar widget... AS IF! Like I'm gonna direct prospects to low ball competition!?
  
  ZMM is a great method for borrowers to leverage against their existing LO, but a poor use of time for originators. Believe me, I've wasted far too much time their.
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